Discussion #3- Judging and Pride Cometh Before the Fall
Judging and Pride Cometh Before the Fall
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Brower, Sandra
5/27/2011
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While reading Ethan Brand, The Minister's Black Veil and Young Goodman Brown, I noticed 3 very similar traits in each Protagonist’s experiences, 1. Each man lived during Puritan times, 2. Each man has an Internal awakening in their soul and 3, each ends up jaded and changed in their views towards their fellow man or the antagonists of their respective story, and thus because of this each ends up isolated until the day they die.
Ethan Brand knew most of the antagonists before his journey of finding the Unpardonable Sin and notices after he returns that the Doctor, the Lawyer and the Esther’s father all seem to have fallen from their previously lofty position in life and ended up on the bottom of the food chain so to say. Which is how he feels about himself; “It is a sin that grew within my own breast…! A sin that grew nowhere else! The sin of an intellect that triumphed over the sense of brotherhood with man, with reverence for God, and sacrificed everything to its own mighty claims! The only sin that deserves a recompense of immortal agony!” he has fallen from grace because the unpardonable sin is found within his own heart. The interesting thing to me is that in his story he blatantly states that he would choose to commit the sin again, “…freely, were it to do again, would I incur the guilt. Unshrinking I accept the retribution.” In Ethan Brand, we see a different type of rise and fall of the story, In the Climax he ends up throwing himself in the Kiln (and committing ANOTHER sin- suicide,) and then the next morning the world is beautiful, sunny and viewed as if the town could be translated or so this is how Betram and his son Joe feel because the unnatuaral dark spirit within Ethan Brand is gone.
Young Goodman Brown travels through the darkness of the forest symbolic of his journey with the Devil from the light into the darkness of his mind and heart. He started out at the beginning of the story young and naïve of how the world was and eventually the rose-colored glasses come off when he happens to see his wife Faith and tells her to resist the temptation and no to follow suit of the townspeople. Automatically, he awakens to finds out it is morning and he doesn't know if Faith chose Good or if she chose Evil- he is distrustful of his evening even being real or a dream. That morning his view of his community has changed he see it as it really is, and like Ethan Brand sees that community as having fallen from grace. He becomes, “a sad, a darkly meditative, person.”
Reverend Hooper I believe is the only one that knows how his community is at the beginning of the story and yet, he still tends to think that his little flock will see his object lesson for what it is and then he can move on through life with them lifted up spiritually higher. This was his misconception- he never communicated his lesson, just continues to believe that they will get it and will start to feel about sin the way he does. In the end, his pride gets in the way and just like the other two Protagonist’s dies jaded, but calls his flock out with his dying words “Have men avoided me, and women shown no pity, and children screamed and fled, only for my black veil?...When the friend shows his innermost heart to his friend: the lover to his best beloved; when man does not vainly shrink from the eye of his Creator, loathsomely treasuring up the secret of his sin; then deem me a monster for the symbol beneath which I have lived, and die! I look around me and Lo on every visage a Black Veil!” The Reverend teaches the flock then that being judgmental and ignoring others because they look or act different is a sin just as much as deliberately choosing to commit a sin. Is there a Denouement for this story? I truly don't know if the conflict gets resolved because even though Rev. Hooper dies, his congregation who never got the point of the lesson while he was alive continues to live, which leads me to believe that this is a never-ending conflict...
All three men could be considered monomaniacal, but all three have chosen this focus on sin in different ways. Ethan Brand went looking for it, Goodman Brown had it thrust upon him, and Rev. Hooper’s pride caused him to continue on with his focus on sin instead of communicating his lesson and then moving on. None of these men could just let go of that focus, they ended up committing the biggest sin of all- forgetting that as a Christian there was a Savior who died for all of them so that they could be forgiven and saved from their sins. They let go of their faith and let that faith turn into a debilitating deep-seated distrust of all things good.
Hawthorne, I believe has given us the ultimate lesson of Good vs. Evil and how quickly we can step over the line to the other without even knowing it. What each protagonist forgot though was that we all have choices, we all have the option of the good choices and that we can focus on using our faith to see the good in every human being. He also wanted us to remember that being Monomaniacal or a religious zealot is not healthy in the effect that you become so focused on one thing and you forget to live and love and believe in the inherent goodness of all- we are after all created in God’s imagine! I think to an extent even Hawthorne’s focus on Sin (the sins he saw of his Grandfather and Father,whom I learned about from Dr. Robison in ENC 1102,) effected his life and jaded him.
Grade and Comment from my Professor: and also Comments from fellow Class Mates on my post.
- RE: Judging and Pride Cometh Before the FallRobison, Cassandra5/28/20110Dear Sandy, your post earns five stars once again for its high level synthesis, analysis and logical conclusions. You weave quotes in so gracefully and logically in key places. This is another strong point of your writing.Don't forget to use " " around short stories, poems and smaller things wheras you use italics for novels, books, magazines, plays, films and big things. : )
Dr. Robison
RE: Judging and Pride Cometh Before the FallCondurso, Allison5/28/20110I thought you made a great point about how each of the characters are similar, yet they all focus on sin differently. Even though the characters have similar traits, they all act differently when presented with sin, just as people do today.I also completely agree about how people can step over the good vs. evil line and not even realize it. Young Goodman Brown didn't realize how far he'd gotten until the following morning when he couldn't look at the townspeople. Similarly with Ethan Brand, by the time he realized the unpardonable sin was inside of him, he already changed for the worse.
- RE: Judging and Pride Cometh Before the FallArnold, Diane5/27/20111I like your insight: the ultimate lesson of Good vs. Evil and how quickly we can step over the line to the other without even knowing it. I find it rather curious that one can spend so much time focusing on being good that they ultimately turn bad. Maybe this idea bothered Hawthorne a lot, to cause him to write such depressing stories about it.
- RE: RE: Judging and Pride Cometh Before the FallBrower, Sandra5/28/20110Diane- I think it haunted Hawthorne, especially since he knew that his family had been involved in the Salem Witch trials and he looking back at it from his perspective caused him embarrasement and guilt. It's like our prosecution of people who frighten us, back then that was their plight to deal with or so they thought and I don't think that he looked on that favorably like his Grandfather might have. Think of all the poor Muslims that were judged after September 11th 2001. It happened during WWII with the Horrors of the Holocaust and Jewish People and also right here in America with the Internment camps and the American Japanese citizens. We, as individuals and groups can't for the life of us learn about how not to judge where it isn't our place and I believe that on a whole we never will. There will always be someone afraid of what they don't understand or think goes against their religion and that is where we all need to learn to worry about ourselves and let other's live with their "Truths".I completely agree that Hawthorne's stories that we have read so far are depressing, but in the Twice Told Tales- there are some really great not so depressing books. I just started reading them...
- RE: Judging and Pride Cometh Before the FallCole, Alisha5/27/20111That is a very interesting way to look at Hawthorne's story of the Black Veil. That Pastor Hooper wore the black crape for his entire life, just waiting for someone to get what he was trying to tell them and because no one ever did and continued to just see it as a dreadful oddity, worthy of their suspicion and hatred, he enslaved himself into becoming a symbol of mankind and their sin. It is, indeed, pitiable, that pride bound him to forever wearing the black veil. You are right. It alienated him from his congregation, the world and even, his betroved. Also, your conversation caused me to realize something. Pastor Hooper's town turned against him, after a certain event. Goodman Brown turned against his town, after a certain event. It is kind of ironic, if you think about it. Goodman Brown suffered from an illusion of what he feared and dreaded most, for Hawthorne never does tell his audience, if what the man saw was real, or fake. Pastor Hooper's veil was nothing more then a dark piece of cloth casting an illusion of darkness, as well. All of those people feared what wasn't there.
- RE: RE: Judging and Pride Cometh Before the FallBrower, Sandra5/28/20110Wow, Alisha. When I was reading I couldn't place my finger on something that was bothering me about all three stories and you just put it so eloquently: Also, your conversation caused me to realize something. Pastor Hooper's town turned against him, after a certain event. Goodman Brown turned against his town, after a certain event. It is kind of ironic, if you think about it. Goodman Brown suffered from an illusion of what he feared and dreaded most, for Hawthorne never does tell his audience, if what the man saw was real, or fake. Pastor Hooper's veil was nothing more then a dark piece of cloth casting an illusion of darkness, as well. All of those people feared what wasn't there.That is exactly what was bothering me... The fear of all those people. I thank you so much for coming to that conclusion. It really was bothering me that I was missing the similarity, I could feel it , but just couldn't place my finger on it. I wish that I could write so easily like you do. I am a girl of abundant description and can never cut it down to choicer words. I envy you that!
- RE: Judging and Pride Cometh Before the FallLambert, Cassandra5/27/20110Your views on the characters being monomaniacal were very good. I agree with all that you said and I suppose because of my religion, I had not thought of that aspect of it. However, now that you mention it, you are correct. All three men should have realized that they would surely be forgiven their sin, but none could think that far past their sin to realize it.
And a few of my comments on other classmates view:All three protagonists are very much monomaniacal in their focus on each of their preoccupations. They all lose themselves in their unbending quest to understand sin and the consequences it brings upon mankind. I believe Hawthorne is trying to say that man loses his humanity when he obsesses about being the perfect and goodly, God-fearing man. All three protagonists become monsters in the eyes of the people around them because they are so focused on not sinning.
I love the use of your sentence "...man loses his humanity when he obsesses about being the perfect and goodly, God-fearing man!" I grew up in a State surrounded by religious zealots whose children when they enter the real world away from their parents, had to find their humanity again because they were so slapped around by the shock of the "natural man" that they thought everything around them was evil and end up judging everyone wrong... after feeling unworthy of life because they were afraid to end up like the people around them, they questioning what they were taught to make sure their "goodness" wasn't over running their life and the blinders came off and they learn to view the world for what it is- yes, there is evil but their is inherently good people who choose not to corrupt other people and they can choose who they associate with and let the rest go!Thank you for reminding me of this view just from using the word Humanity
RE: Hawthorne--Brower, Sandra5/28/20110Tyler- I really like your insight on focusing more on other's versus being self-centered. I do think that we lose compassion and understanding of others when we fail to walk in their shoes or look at life thru their eyes. I didn't know that Hawthorne had sheltered numerous family members. I think that is an admirable trait and helps me appreciate Hawthorne even more. I thank you for your helping me understand the Author's Worldview of these three stories.RE: discussion 3 - Hawthorne--Brower, Sandra5/27/20110Michele-"It appears that Hawthorne utilized personal experience in his works. In addition, many of his own personality traits seem to be mirrored in that of his characters. The protagonists in the above mentioned writings have in common the facts that they each alienate themselves, set off on an undeterred course of action, and suffer guilt. Hawthorne also endured an isolated existence, set a goal to become a famous and prosperous writer which took precedence to the point of single mindedness behavior, which behavior caused him guilt. McMichael 1087"I really appreciate that you brought out the highlighted portion of your post. I never really picked up that idea that his personal characteristics where mirrored in the characters. I love that you included this in because it gave me an "aha" moment. Thanks for that!
Discussion 3 - Hawthorne--Cole, Alisha5/26/20110What Bartram, Reverend Hooper and Goodman Brown all had in common, as protagonists of Hawthorne's stories was that they all seemed to be men of good character that were haunted by darkness or evil forces that they wanted nothing to do with. Also, each of the protagonists seemed trapped and ensnared in such a fashion that they could not get loose from what was haunting them. Bartram was a lime-kiln opperator. One can deduce from Hawthorne's writings that such work is not only long and time consuming, but also, heavy, hot and nearly constant, because the furnace had to remain lit. While every other man in town seemed to be living riotously and spending their time and money at the local tavern, Bartram was sitting by his furnace, late at night, making sure that the fire needed for his livelihood did not burn out. This shows that Bartram was a responsible man. A man who kept an eye on his son, as well, even if he tended to be a bit rough, verbally with him. So, a hard worker and a good father. Bartram had quite a few virtues, even if he was rough around the edges. The evil that befell him was that of a man searching for the unpardonable sin and had convinced himself that he had found it. Bartram came in contact with Ethan Brand, who had opperated that very same kiln and lived in that very same village, ages ago, before he went on his journey to search for the unpardonable sin. Because Ethan Brand once opperated that very same kiln, Bartram could not bring himself to make the other man leave. So, he was trapped with or by an evil that he could not turn away.
RE: Discussion 3 - Hawthorne--Brower, Sandra5/27/20110Forgive me for asking Alisha, but isn't Bertram one of the Antagnosits? Usually the Protagonist is the person that changes the most. maybe we should all say that little Joe is the one that is the Protagonist because he is scared of Ethan Brand, but then feels sorry for him and then is joyous at the end that the darkness of the night before is gone? I only thought of this view while reading your post. I guess, you could see Bertram as the Protagonist, but the story is called Ethan Brand... I don't know just my view.I really like your use of the word Despair! It is truly how I was feeling at the end of Young Goodman Brown and The Minister's Black View. Only with Hawthorne's brilliant use of imagery did i not feel despair in Ethan Brand. The world seemed happier and lighter after the darkness and evil spirit in the air the night before that I rejoice with Little Joe and his father. I whole heartedly agree with your view of our own Mortality being brought up to play. I felt the same way!
RE: RE: Discussion 3 - Hawthorne--Cole, Alisha5/27/20110Mm, do not feel the need to apologize. It is perfectly alright to ask such a question. I believe that the protagonist of the story is according to ones' point of view, concerning Hawthorne's tale of Ethan Brand and to be judged according to one's own set of values. For example, Bertram seemed to be the protagonist to me, because the story started out with him. Also, the property in which the story was played out, for the most part, was his land and centered around his lime-kiln. It used to be Ethan Brand's property and lime-kiln at one point in time, but technically, because he had abandoned it, it belonged to another man. Also, because Bertram could not escape the scene of madness, because it was, indeed, his property and thus, he was confined there, the entire time, unlike the child who left, or Ethan Brand who came into the story from the beginning and left it through death, thus leaving Bertram to discover his remains. Thus, I feel that he was more rightfully the protagonist and Ethan Brand was the antagonist, for Bertram would have lived out his life peacefully enough, had Brand not intruded upon his property, causing chaos and dread with his presence, as antagonists tend to do. That was my take on it.Perhaps you are right, concerning the end of the story of Ethan Brand. Perhaps the world was a better place. At least, for Bertram it was, because he had an entire lime-kiln full of rare material that he could surely sell for a high price. Also, he did not have to worry about Ethan Brand lurking about, casting haunting shadows, any longer. RE: RE: RE: Discussion 3 - Hawthorne--Brower, Sandra5/28/20110Thankyou so much for your view of the story. You are right we all read and see thing from our own point of view. I never really would have seen it that way and yet when you told me your view it makes total sense. The story was based on his realm and i love that I know can see it that way also. Thanks for enlarging my views to help me be a better reader.
I know you might be tired of these discussion forum posts but, this is also my journal you know and I don't want to waste paper by printing them out. I am a little bit of a remember-a-holic. ~S~
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